The following interview with the Nechung Kuten, Venerable Thupten Ngodup (Medium of the State Oracle), took place at Nechung monastery in Dharamsala on August 14, and was jointly done by Lotsawa Tsepak Rinzin and Tsering Tashi

Q: Would you tell us something about your background and childhood?

NK: I was born in Tibet on July 13, 1958 in Phari bordering Bhutan. My parents come from a peasant's family. In 1959, following Chinese occupation of Tibet, my parents having lost their freedom also experienced the same kind of hardship under the Chinese rule. Then in 1966, during the so-called Cultural Revolution, my parents escaped Tibet with me to Bhutan. lam the only child in the family but have a half-brother who is now living in Dharamsala. In Bhutan, we were temporarily resettled in a Tibetan refugee camp.

My father was a descendant of a wellknown Ngagpa (tantric practitioner) family which belonged to the Khon lineage of the Sakya tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. My mother comes from the Nanying district of Gyantse, and later got settled in Phari, where I was born. Unfortunately, both of them have passed away.

My father was a good Chod (Cut-ritual) practitioner, and after our arrival in Bhutan, he always told us about his personal interest to go to India to receive His Holiness the Dalai Lama's blessings and then leave this worldly life to become a hermit. Later, along with other Tibetan refugees, we left Bhutan for India to seek our second asylum in exile and arrived in Dharamsala in early 1969. My family found a home near the Tibetan Children's Village (TCV School). As the previous batches of Tibetan refugees had already reached Dharamsala since 1959, we were like the present-day new arrivals from Tibet. The Tibetan government in exile, therefore, organised a new camp for our group and we worked as road construction labourers to earn our living. The road, above TCV, leading to the Indian village was constructed by us. Our camp leader was Gyagpon Tachoe-la. During the summer we moved to Kulu-Manali and Rohtang to construct roads. I also worked. At that time I was around l0-years-old. Actually, education opportunity was given to all Tibetan refugee children, but TCV accepted only orphans and my parents were reluctant to send me to a far away place. So for two years I worked as a coolie with my parents.

Q: "What about your early education and monastic training?

NK: As a child I had a natural inclination to do anything religious. 1 even told my parents of my desire to become a monk. They too said it would be worthwhile to lead a life to be a monk. So in 1969, after our return to Dharamsala from Kulu, I was initially admitted to Gadong monastery and remained there for a year. At that time, I knew nothing about Nechung monastery which was then temporarily located at Nazara Kothi (1 km below Gangchen Kyishong, the seat of the Tibetan government in exile). Everyday I had to go to Nechung for pujas and study, and return to Gadong the same evening. This is how I spent about a year at Gadong.

But to be frank, deep down in my heart I started feeling closer to Nechung, and my father knowing the trouble of my having to daily walk between Gadong and Nechung, suggested that it would be better for me to join Nechung as there is technically no difference between the two monasteries. So this is how I joined Nechung in 1971.

Since 1971 Nechung admitted more boys and I received all the basic religious training at the monastery. After completion of the basic training at Nechung, a monk could chose either of the two lines Sung-Zang (the chant master's line) or Chod-Zheng Ba (the ritual master's line). Since I had a natural interest in the skills of creative arts and crafts, I joined the second group, and gradually was upgraded to the highest rank. Since 1981, I became Cho-pon (the ritual leader).

Q: How and when were you recognised as the Nechung Kuten or the Medium of the State Oracle?

NK: In 1984, after the passing away of the previous medium Venerable Lobsang Jigme, for about three years there was no medium for the Nechung Oracle. His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote a prayer for the speedy return of the medium and commissioned Nechung monastery and the Drepung monastery, with whom the oracle has a special relationship, to recite the prayer.

Then on March 31, 1987, corresponding to the second day of the second Tibetan month, Drepung Lhatze (Day of Drepung's Summoning of the Oracle) was requested at Nechung monastery.

In Tibet, Drepung observed this day every month. But in exile, since Drepung is far away in South India, they observed the day by offering an invocation rite in front of Nechung's thanka (scroll painting) at their monastery. But occasionally Drepung would send their representatives to Dharamsala during the annual teaching programme of His Holiness the Dalai Lama at the main Theckchen Choeling temple and performed Drepung Lhatse at Nechung monastery when the previous medium of Nechung was alive.

Thus on March 31, 1987, a number of Lamas, Geshes and monks from Drepung came to Dharamsala to receive teachings from His Holiness and later, sought Nechung's blessings at Nechung monastery, as if, there was a trance going on, although there was no medium of the oracle. I was amongst the attendants holding incense pot in the hall. As the monks started reciting the text of the invocation, at an appropriate point and all of a sudden, I happened to be possessed by the spirit. This was the first time I was seized by the spirit of the Nechung.

This incident of the day was immediately brought to the notice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama by the abbots, officials and representatives of Drepung through the Department of Religion and Culture. After two days I was summoned by His Holiness and 1 went to Him with our Lopon (Vajra Acharya Venerable Thupten Phuntsok). His Holiness asked many questions to us and, particularly to me concerning various signs I had, such as in dreams and others. I reported every single incident from the beginning. His Holiness then asked me to carry out a retreat on Hayagriva Khamsum Zilnon, and accordingly, I fulfilled the commitment.

Q: Briefly tell us about the dreams and other signs you experienced before being recognised as Nechung Kuten or the medium of the State Oracle?

NK: I personally consider that to become a medium is definitely a result of one's past karmic connections and prayers. Also, as a child I used to have very strong feeling of closeness with the Dharma protector, and I had a special faith and devotion in him. After the passing away of the previous medium, I dreamt of the Dharma protector in trance on several occasions. In those dreams, the person in trance was not me. It was somewhat like the previous medium and sometimes, it was even not clearly recognisable.

In 1985, during the Kalachakra (Wheel of Life) initiation in Bodhgaya, I bleeded a lot from my nose and mouth. The blood I swallowed was vomitted out. In between, I lost hope of survival, and started thinking that I have no special fear if I die. I also had a very special emotional experience, though I could not understand what it meant at that time. And as I began experiencing more and more unusual signs, I wondered what these emotional feelings could mean to me. But gradually, I recovered from the illness and, luckily, was able to attend the actual Kalachakra ceremony.

Then one night during the same occasion in Bodhgaya, I dreamt of a long staircase where a lot of monkeys accorded a ceremonial welcome. The monkeys were holding fruits in their hands, and one of them held my hand and lead me through the higher steps. Upon reaching a platform, I saw a big tree which had a hole into which I was lead. It is commonly believed that seeing monkeys in one's dream signifies connection to the Dharma protector. But at that time, I did not have such a thought. Nevertheless, when I had this dream, I really experienced a pleasant feeling, so peaceful and gentle, a very unusual feeling. I also had other significant dreams. These dreams, no doubt, gave me a very pleasant and an ecstatic feeling. I felt full of peace and serenity in my heart.

However, a year later and a week or so before I was actually seized (March 31,1987) by the spirit of the Dharma protector, I felt mentally very disturbed. At that time His Holiness the Dalai Lama was giving teachings on lam-rim (Graded Path) text. I involuntarily felt unpleasant to accompany the other Nechung monks to the temple for the teachings and stayed behind to go last and alone. Also I would leave the temple at the very end of all the fellow-monks. So this disturbed the state of my mind and it lingered in me for a few days and the unpleasant state of feeling started growing more intense as days passed by.

When I knew that in a few days time the Drepung monks were to perform the Drepung Lhatse, I felt so insecure and intense fear gripped me. A day earlier (March 30,1987), before the Drepung Lhatse was to be performed, I had a severe headache but took courage to bear it because His Holiness the Dalai Lama was giving a public teaching on Vipasana (Special Insight) section. It was not the kind of headache I would normally suffer and I felt like walking closer towards His Holiness' presence, near His Holiness' throne. This feeling was so involuntarily overwhelming me. When everyone had a break, I still did not feel like taking a break but knew that I got up and stood in the corridor -almost in a lost thought. That day the emotional currents in me were extremely usual'. I wanted to move towards His Holiness' presence. When friends sitting around me noticed this unusual behaviour, they asked me, "What was the problem." I said, "No, nothing, just a little headache." I sat bending my head down. I simply wanted the teaching session to finish earlier.

As soon as the session was over and His Holiness had left, I went inside the temple and prayed in the presence of Guru Rinpoche and Arya Avalokiteshvara. At that moment I had some doubt in my mind and was thinking if this meant I was going to be the medium of the Dharma protector. Hence, I prayed, "If I was going to be so, this would be a precious opportunity to be able to serve the Buddha Dharma. If it turns to be true, I shall serve the Dharma and Tibet to the best of my ability. May all the obstacles be removed." I was really doubtful at the time and it grew stronger and stronger.

Later I left the main temple behind the rest of the monks. When I reached our monastery, I found that Khamtrul Rinpoche had left a clay stupa for me to fix. The top-knot had fallen apart. So that night I spent quite sometime fixing it to be able to return it to Khamtrul Rinpoche the next day. This done, I felt a bit more comfortable that night.

But the same night in my dream I saw mushrooms everywhere on the lawn around Nechung monastery. It was early in the morning and the monks were about to perform the Drepung Lhatse. I saw myself walling on the roof of the temple from where I could see a rainbow wrapping the temple. I then happen to pluck mush-rooms and collect them in my monastic zan (the maroon shawl worn by monks). This could be an auspicious coincidence connected to the Dharma protector.

Next morning (March 31) when I joined the religious gathering, everyone was busy. I felt extremely Unpleasant, emotionally disturbed and short-tempered. When Vajra Acharya'a Venerable Thupten Phuntsok asked me to prepare a black tea set to be offered to the Dharma protector, I got agitated and replied, "When there is no medium to possess the spirit of the Dharma protector, to whom should we offer black tea?" The Acharya felt it was unnatural of me to respond in such a manner because normally I would never dare to answer him that way. I have always treated my elders with respect. The Acharya, however, told me, "Well, you are right, but let us think that the Dharma protector is in trance and simply imagine we are offering the black-tea, so what." He further advised me to distribute Chag Ne (blessed grains) to the public.

Normally, during Drepung Lhatse, the monks would first perform an ablution ceremony at the corridor of the temple before they entered the temple. So, when they were performing the ablution ceremony, I happened to go nearby and pick up the incense pot, though it was not necessary. I took it inside and left the pot near the Dharma protector's throne. I then turned to move out of the temple through the main door, but found it impossible. I felt as 'if there was some force that was dragging me to stay inside. My legs almost became numb and despite efforts, I felt I could not move. Finally, through the back door, I managed to go out and ran around the temple to join the monks at the corridor. By then the ablution ceremony was already over and the monks had assembled inside the temple for the invocation rite to be led by the Nechung monks.

When the rite began I rushed inside and picked up 'the incense pot. But as soon as I entered with the pot inside the inner chapel of the Dharma protector, I felt a sudden electric current in me. Then instantly my vision went blurred, and my body started trembling wildly. I had no control of my own body. I looked around and saw Vajra Acharya Venerable Thupten Phuntsok. All I could remember was handing over the pot to him. Then, in a flip of a second, I was completely overwhelmed, as if caught in an electric shock. It was so swift that I could not remember anything that must have happened to me.

Q: How was the official ceremony of your recognition as the medium of the State Oracle conducted?

NK: The ceremony took place in the early hours of September 4, 1987, in Nechung monastery's hall. Tibetan government officials and Nechung monks greeted me with traditional scarves and offered the Three-fold Mandala. Then at 9 a.m., I went to receive blessings and advise from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Later, I went to Ling Rinpoche's residence, Serkong Rinpoche's residence and the Theckchen Choeling temple

The abbot of Drepung and representatives of Nechung Dorji Drayang Ling Centre in Hawaii also attended the ceremony. Representatives of other monasteries, Tibetan government officials and the general public were also present to greet me.

As soon as I was seated on the throne, the members of the Kashag (Tibetan Cabinet) greeted me first with scarves. They were followed by representatives from Departments of Central Tibetan Administration, Namgyal monastery, Gadong monastery, Institute of Buddhist Dialectics, and organisations.

Q: What feelings did you have on being recognised as the Nechung Kuten and did this change your life?

NK: To become Nechung's medium is not an ordinary duty. It is a responsibility of national importance. I feel that if it is able to render good service, especially to the Buddha dharma and Tibet, then my personal life is insignificant.

After becoming the medium, I had to automatically resign from the post of the ritual master and, in accordance with our tradition, expected to look after the affairs of the monastery as its Head Lama, even though I am not a very learned person as I ought to be. I also have to study more and meet more people and attend official functions and ceremonies. Many people, including journalists, come to ask all sorts of questions regarding the Dharma protector and the medium.

It is a tradition of Nechung monastery that once you become the medium you automatically become the abbot of the monastery as well. Taking this post is not merely a question of receiving the title, but being able to actually preside and lead the ritual ceremonies, many of which are of wrathful nature connected to the Dharma protector's cycle of ritual traditions. These are of extreme significance.

In the past when we had Nechung Rinpoche, he would lead the ceremonies and the medium did not have to shoulder the responsibilities of leading the ceremonies. As I have been trained as a monk of this Sangha community since my childhood, I do not have much difficulties in joining the pujas and ceremonies. I may be lacking some qualifications by virtue of spiritual realisations, however, whenever I am bound to take the responsibility of leading a ritual ceremony, I sincerely pray from the depth of my heart and express the power of the truth or the ultimate reality.

On the other hand, since I became the medium, to some extend, I have lost my personal freedom of movement. When I want to go for a holiday, I should make sure that it coincides with the absence of His Holiness from the town. Also I seek permission from the Office of His Holiness the Dalai and inform the Tibetan government of where I can be contacted. Then, in terms of my diet, I am required to observe certain dietary discipline. For instance, I am not supposed to eat fish, eggs and pork.

But basically, not much has changed. Although many advise me not to do ordinary work, I still do things that have interested me, and sometimes lead young monks in undertaking mundane tasks, like painting the monastery. I believe in dignity of labour.

Q: Before going into a trance, what levels of change do you experience?

NK: It depends on who requests the trance. Sometimes my inner feelings gets disturbed a day or two before the trance and sometimes, only a few hours before. For instance, if His Holiness or the Kashag (cabinet) commissions the trance to take place, then, it comes a day before and gets stronger as the time for the trance draws closer. The following morning and especially after I have worn the costumes and been seated amidst the call for trance by the monks chanting, the inner feeling becomes so intense that sometimes it is hard to imagine.

Q: Is the Nechung medium while in trance only possessed by Dorje Drak-den?

NK: Normally when the invocation prayer is recited, it concerns the five forms of the Dharma King. But primarily, it is of Dorje Drakden. However, it

is said that, "The manifestation of the Five Kings is not predetermined." Dorje Drakden manifests as the minister of the Dharma Kings. Hence, he is called Shung-Tan Dra-Lha (Principal State Oracle). So I consider and believe that it is usually Dorje Drak-den who comes through the medium.

Q: The prophesies have so far been given in Tibetan. In future, will Nechung also give prophesies in other languages?

NIC: Until now, Nechung has spoken only in Tibetan. As for the future, I have no comments. Our senior monks say that in the past, the prophesies were extremely poetic and difficult to understand. Gradually, the prophesies became more and more clear, and during my predecessor's time, and now, Nechung's prophesies have become even more clearer. But normally, it is spoken in the form of a poem in stanzas and prose style or a mixture of both. The language, however, is certainly not exactly like the common language. It is spoken with a tune, unique to Nechung.

Q: Do you recollect what has been said during a trance?

NK: No, certainly not. Just before the trance, I see and sense what is going around me. But gradually even my senses dissolve and then in a kind of sleep-state I become totally absorbed, and do not correctly remember what has happened and been said. Normally, when I am seated on the throne with my costumes on, I do my meditations while reciting the mantras of Hayagriva. Slowly, I get possessed through a deeper state of absorption, and then gradually feel distant from my own identity and surroundings. It is like having a dream and not remembering it the next morning. The same is the case with me before and after I come out of trance.

Q: How often does the Nechung medium go into a trance, and who can request for it and under what circumstances?

NK: In Tibet the Nechung is summoned to a trance on the tenth day of the first Tibetan month at old Meru monastery, near Tsuglag Khang (Central Cathedral) in Lhasa. This official celebration is presided over by the His Holiness the Dalai Lama and all the government officials. Besides this, a trance is performed occasionally at the request of the Office of His Holiness, the Kashag, the Grand Lama's Estates, and monasteries. In between, a trance is performed for emergency matters.

After coming into exile, though there were trances of Nechung, they were not performed as often as it used to be in Tibet. But later, a schedule was observed. The trance on the 10th day of the first Tibetan month became a regular feature. Then, at times, Nechung monks were invited to Drepung in Mundgod, South India, for a special trance of the Dharma protector. In addition, there is the Summer Trance and the Winter Trance requested by the Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and other institutions.

In the past, except on the 10th of the first Tibetan month and the Drepung Lhatse at Mundgod, Gye-Che (the grand costume) is not worn. Later, on the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, some relaxation was brought. The public could view some of the trance, take photos and interview the medium. However, except for the Kashag, the monastery ensures that other requests for trance are approved by the Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Q: A news agency recently reported you as the spiritual adviser to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. What is your reaction to this?

NK: This is a misunderstanding on the part of the press. Perhaps, the reporter must have mentioned this to elevate the position of the Oracle or the medium. But unfortunately, he has made a mistake. I personally have not met any pressmen or others who raised this issue to me.

His Holiness does not need spiritual advice from the protector. If so, what about the interim period. From 1984 until I was recognised, there was no medium. However, His Holiness never failed to lead the Tibetan government and its people. Also it must be understood, and I believe, that Nechung acts as a divine colleague in the conduct of His Holiness the Dalai Lama's spiritual and temporal responsibilities, and not as an adviser.

Q: Are you possessed by Nechung only when you are officially requested to perform a trace?

NK: No, not necessarily. There have been occasions, both in the past and present, when the Nechung medium went into a spontaneous trance. For instance, before I was officially recognized as the medium, I was possessed by the Dharma protector at Theckchen Choeling temple on one or two occasions. In the past, during the reign of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, when the then medium went for a bath to the river blank, he was suddenly possessed by the spirit of the oracle.

Q: What levels of prophesies does Nechung make direct or indirect, definitive or interpretative, secret or open?

NK: I think various levels of prophesies are made in accordance with the weightage of the issues involved and the institution and person who requests for it, and so on. The general prophesies are not so uncommon. We all hear and read about them. But some prophesies of the State Oracle are so poetic and indirect that to understand then' would take quite an effort and investigation by wise and experienced people.

Q: Is the Nechung Oracle there to serve only the Tibetan government headed by His Holiness the Dalai Lama or will the Dharma protector be always available and under all circumstances?

NK: Nechung is known as the Principal State Oracle. If you study the origin of the Dharma protector, he had connections with the Indian Religious King, Kunchok Bhang, an emanation of Arya Avalokiteshvara. Later, in Tibet, during the time of King Tri Song Deu-Tsan in the eighth century, Samye was built with assistance from Guru Padmasambhava and Shanta Rakshita.

At that time Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) bound Nechung to oath to become the protector of Tibet's sovereignty and the Dharma. The rule of the Dalai Lama's began in 1642 during the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. This is the beginning of the formal connection between the Dharma protector and the Dalai Lamas. But being a protector of Tibet's sovereignty and Dharma, I think Nechung, to fulfill his commitments, and under all circumstances, will continue to serve Tibet's sovereignty and Dharma.

Q: what advice do you have for the Tibetan people?

NK: 1 would advise the Tibetans to realise that Arya Avalokiteshvara by virtue of his prayers has come in different manifestations to guide the Tibetan people. This is because of our karmic connections and prayers. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has always worked for our benefit and especially, since the Chinese invasion. The awareness of Tibet in the world is now growing. This does not merely come from political forces but from our religion, culture and people. They have appealed to a worldwide audience. We must not forget this, and every Tibetan, including government officials, must work hard and sincerely for our common cause.

His Holiness and the Dharma protector have said that in a few years time, a bright chance lies ahead for the people of Tibet. So this is what we must all concentrate on. Giving and receiving freedom will take only a day, but running a government and a nation is not an easy task. Let us, therefore, all work together. The Dharma protector on a number of occasion has said, "The achievement of Tibet's goal is the joint responsibility of both the people of Tibet and the protectors." So if the people work hard and sincerely, the protectors will always be enthusiastically with us.

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Last updated: 10-Nov-97